Oleaginousness Watch

Heather, if I may say so, I think that you are being too harsh. Without knowing (I think) any of the individuals concerned, the conservative pundit appeared to have done nothing more than signal to (then) president-elect Obama that he, as a Christian, would be praying for Obama, another publicly professed Christian – pretty standard stuff, as I see it, and no cause for concern.

On the wider topic of prayer, I, for one, would be flattered (and, possibly, sort of relieved) if religious friends were to remember me in their prayers. It may work (I doubt it, but you never know), but, more than that, it is an expression of friendship – and, as such, it is to be welcomed, relished and celebrated, however strange the form it takes.

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24 Responses to Oleaginousness Watch

  1. Things were a bit religious for my taste, but given that it is mostly a ceremonial occasion, and we nonbelievers did get a shoutout, I’ll call it progress. Sometimes that’s all you can reasonably hope for.

    I would rather people kept their prayers off of me. Most people are taught from a young age to put up with such things, but it makes me feel a bit violated. It is kinda like that relative that always gave you ugly clothing as a kid. You had to wear it to make them feel good even though it made you uncomfortable to do so. I haven’t often put up with either since I was about eight.

  2. Donna B. says:

    Mr. Stuttaford, as one who has been prayed for and asked to pray for others, it’s more like being preached to.

    My 7 year old son, when recovering from an accident, responded to a nurse who told him that Jesus made him walk again by saying “I did it all by myself.”

    Where others find comfort in such sayings, even the supposedly innocuous “I’ll pray for you”, I find something approaching insult. Instead of actually doing something (so simple as tying an invalid’s shoes, perhaps) they’ll pray that the invalid may someday be able to do it by himself.

    When I find myself on a prayer list (my extended family is quite religious) I remind myself that they are wishing me well when action is not available to them, as they may be 1000 miles away. But they are not strangers to me. The wishing well is mutual, though it may not take the same form.

    I spent 2 1/2 months taking radiation for a brain tumor. The treatments were short, but the waiting room time was usually 30+ minutes. A lot of religious stuff was talked about, but the only religious person there that impressed me was the one that crocheted bookmarks with angels on them and gave them to everyone she met there.

    She was interested in making somebody else feel better, whereas strangers and mere acquaintances who offer to pray for you are more interested in making themselves feel better by offering something that doesn’t cost them a thing or take up much time, even if they do follow through with their promise.

    I would probably be very happy if I could be religious, faithful, prayerful… but I simply cannot override my brain. I cannot bring myself to believe that mankind is inherently sinful and that’s what most religions seem to require in one way or another. It just makes too much sense to me that man must be more good than bad to survive and I’ve seen way too much evidence that religion does not necessarily make man good.

  3. Ken Silber says:

    Carl Sagan, who was nobody’s idea of a religious believer, was deeply moved to learn that thousands were praying for him (to recover from disease) at a Hindu ceremony on the Ganges, and at St. John the Divine.

  4. Heather Mac Donald says:

    I take your just correction, Andrew, and know that I should be more generous. And yet . . .
    According to Kristol, everyone at the Will dinner party was expressing his good wishes to Obama. Along comes someone who says: “I’ll be praying for you.” What does this add to the collective expression of support? I cannot shake off the sense–and I apologise to well-meaning believers who merely are expressing their good will in the language that they are most comfortable with–that there is something, dare I say, almost preening about the declaration that you are praying for someone else, when no one else has said so? Does the prayer-giver think that he is more solicitous of Obama’s success than the others? I will leave aside the presumptuousness of thinking that you might influence God.
    But you are right, Andrew, to observe that the declaration of prayer in this case was between two professed believers, which does change the dynamics of the exchange. I am somewhat skeptical that Obama is a fervent believer–I can’t think that anyone who was would say that people turn to religion out of bitterness–but we should take him at his word. Given his inclusion of non-believers in his inaugural speech, however, I would expect less God-talk from this administration.

  5. ChrisK says:

    I always liked this Daniel Dennett quote:
    “…But I am not joking when I say that I have had to forgive my friends who said that they were praying for me. I have resisted the temptation to respond “Thanks, I appreciate it, but did you also sacrifice a goat?” I feel about this the same way I would feel if one of them said “I just paid a voodoo doctor to cast a spell for your health.” What a gullible waste of money that could have been spent on more important projects! Don’t expect me to be grateful, or even indifferent. I do appreciate the affection and generosity of spirit that motivated you, but wish you had found a more reasonable way of expressing it…”
    http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dennett06/dennett06_index.html

  6. j mct says:

    Per Donna B.

    Per religious belief, a sin is the same as a ‘flaw’, and that ‘man being inherently sinful’ means that ‘Nobody’s perfect’. Would an empiricist disagree with that?

    I hope all your medical stuff turns out well, but it’s not indicative of clear headed thinking to say that you cannot believe in human sinfulness after you just got done pointing out the deviations from perfection, i.e. sins, of the people you shared the waiting room with.

  7. Clark says:

    Heather, I suspect that for many Christians to say you are praying for someone entails that you don’t just hope they do well but that you are taking part of your day out and put an active focus of will that they will do better. A secularist can say this is meaningless ultimately. But it seems that in terms of focus and intent the person who prays has greater concern than a mere well wisher.

    Put it an other way, I find all those “5 mile runs for X” type of charity things silly. Running 5 miles to end hunger is not going to end hunger any better than just writing the cheque and not running. But I do think it signals a kind of greater commitment if you do show up early Saturday money and join in the run. Especially if it is inconvenient to do so. Now one can dispute whether this is effecient or effective. That is if you have that level of commitment and focus why not do something better? Yet it seems hard to deny it indicates a commitment level.

    I think prayer is akin to that as a signifier.

  8. Clark says:

    To add, of course lots of people say they are praying for someone and never do (and may actually not be the praying sort). So it’s not as if this doesn’t get abused. And of course as folks have noted not everyone enjoyed being told they are prayed for.

  9. Kevembuangga says:

    j mct
    Per religious belief, a sin is the same as a ‘flaw’, and that ‘man being inherently sinful’ means that ‘Nobody’s perfect’. Would an empiricist disagree with that?

    Most certainly!!!
    Sin entails guilt from the sinner, a flaw does not.

  10. j mct says:

    Per Ms. Macdonald, you must have an awful time walking around all ticked off when you have a cold and sneeze in public.

    Kevembuagga: Flaws are sins. I don’t get what you’re saying, and I’m pretty sure it’s because you’re not making any sense. On a personal level, I generally find stupid Christians are far less annoying than stupid atheists though, stupid Christians don’t endlessly yammer on about the importance of being intelligent.

  11. Donna B. says:

    j mct — Sins are not merely flaws, and to be without sin is not perfection. And I did not say I believe mankind to be perfect, because I cannot define what a perfect human would be like.

    I might agree with humans being inherently annoying, but not inherently sinful.

  12. Michel S. says:

    @Donna B.
    My sympathies to your son — I’d feel outraged if a member of the medical profession, who should know better, could not keep her (his) private beliefs from interfering with her work, and inflicted it on me. Deeply unprofessional to say the least!

  13. Susan says:

    I wonder if the nurse who told Donna B.’s son that Jesus made him walk realizes that in so saying, she was conceding that doctors and nurses have absolutely no effect on patient outcomes. In which case, the nurse is collecting her salary under false pretenses.

  14. Gherald L says:

    I’m reminded of this list: http://the-brights.net/movement/toolbox/p4y/

    Once, in a situation of antagonistic disapproval someone said they’d pray for me so I replied with “And I’ll think for you.”

    Yeah, petty. But I felt like doing it just that once.

  15. j mct says:

    Donna B., if you’ll forgive me for being annoying….

    Per the religion “the religion of Donna B.” sins might not be flaws, but, even if not all of it’s adherents might not understand it, per the religion called “Christianity”, they are. Period, I guess, it’s the definition. Christianity is very big on the forgiveness of sins though.

    Moral philosophy, in the high falutin sense, is specifically and exactly about what a perfect man is like.

  16. Donna B. says:

    j mct :

    j mct
    Per the religion “the religion of Donna B.” sins might not be flaws, but, even if not all of it’s adherents might not understand it, per the religion called “Christianity”, they are. Period, I guess, it’s the definition. Christianity is very big on the forgiveness of sins though.

    Moral philosophy, in the high falutin sense, is specifically and exactly about what a perfect man is like.

    I have sinned if I have a zit? Zits are flaws, murder is sin.

    And moral philosophers have agreed on what a perfect man is like? That’s news to me!

  17. Daniel Dare says:

    Heather,
    Along comes someone who says: “I’ll be praying for you.” What does this add to the collective expression of support?

    Consciously it says “I support you”.

    Unconsciously it says: You may be President of the USA, but I am on first name terms with GOD!!! I talk – God listens.

    99.999999% of preachiness is small ego syndrome.

    The president was astute to respond solicitously. He rightly intuited that it is a status-enhancing device and the politically-smart move is to pander to it. You might win a future vote.

    Forever after, the person will tell everyone at dinner parties, how he offered to pray for the President, and the President really appreciated his influence and divine-connectedness.

    In the private depths of his lonely soul, he thinks, “Even the President believes I can talk to God”.

  18. Spawn of Cthulhu says:

    Y’all seem as angry, in general, as the most outspoken lefty atheists. I am a non-believer, but apparently fall firmly in the Stuttaford camp, where I’m not perpetually offended by those who are religious. I believe that others that belong here are Derb, Dalrymple, and probably Razib/David Hume.
    There’s no reason for bitterness simply because someone said that he’ll pray for you. While it likely won’t help, they’re simply expressing their support/best wishes. Nothing more than that, it’s essentially like saying “Have a nice day”.
    The comments above, starting with Heather’s, are what I’d expect from someone like Richard Dawkins who sets out to shock and antagonize. There is nothing wrong with showing some politeness to those who are religious. Every statement that they make shouldn’t be treated as a teaching point.

  19. Daniel Dare says:

    OK Spawn. Maybe I’m wrong.
    Perhaps they really do talk to God. What do I know? I am only a poor ignorant unbeliever.
    I only know that God does not talk to me. So I assume others are faking it too. So I look for motives to explain their self-deception.

    Maybe it’s really me with the ego problem: Why can’t God talk to me like he does to all these other folks?
    Am I not also a lonely soul facing the darkness of the infinite unknown? With only death at the end.

    Envy. That’s what it is. Not anger.

  20. Don Kenner says:

    I think it depends on the context. If I’m sick and someone says he is praying for me, I say “thank you.”

    But a woman who came to my yard sale walked up to a friend who was there with her disabled baby (adopted from a crack-head mother) and said “can I pray for you child?” My friend said “sure,” upon which an interminable series of prayers began, including the laying on of hands and what sounded like a speaking in tongues. But here’s the punch line: she ended by telling my friend that if she were “right with God” her baby wouldn’t be disabled. Granted, this is the extreme end of abusive prayers, but the point is that sometimes prayer does not constitute good wishes, but rather, subtle (and not-so-subtle!) condemnation.

  21. Daniel Dare says:

    I don’t know. I agree it depends. If someone I’ve been having a friendly interaction with, “signs off” with “I’ll pray for you”, I will either just nod without expressing approval. (I never encourage religious display) or say, “You don’t have to. I don’t believe in prayer”. But quietly in a non-hostile way.

    But then, even the word “goodbye” is supposed to mean “God be with you” in corrupted Middle English or something. So where does atheist puritanism stop?

    I don’t like movies with supernatural themes, unless it is clearly fantasy like Lord Of The Rings. Definitely not realistic horror or religious themes. I try to avoid the use of blasphemous curses as expletives. (I keep the commandment about not taking God’s name in vain, better than most pious believers). Scatalogical or sexual cursing doesn’t offend me. I never tell people my star sign or I quip: “I am a sagittarius and sagittarius don’t believe in astrology”

    I would never have allowed some stranger to pray over my (hypothetical) child. If they asked, I’d have said something like, “If I needed a witchdoctor, I’d hire one from central casting.” I never donate to religious charities like “Salvation Army”, no matter how much “good” they do.

    So I do try to really live true to my own principles. And I think that’s what it really is.

  22. Don Kenner says:

    “I would never have allowed some stranger to pray over my (hypothetical) child. If they asked, I’d have said something like, ‘If I needed a witchdoctor, I’d hire one from central casting.’”

    You’re right, of course. But sometimes people are just too nice. It’s a small town, and we tend push politeness to the max, to avoid becoming course like you city folk 🙂 But, yes, I should have said, “Lady, get the @#$% off my lawn!”

  23. Donna B. says:

    I’m surrounded by believers. One of my neighbors advertises which church they go to with a sign in their yard. So pardon me if I sound a little harsh in my rants here. It’s the only place I get to talk freely about not believing and how other’s assumptions that I must be a believer just like them gets on my nerves and occasionally offends me.

  24. Daniel Dare says:

    Donna, this is a website for unbelievers. Any believer that comes here is trying to impose their views on us or trying to demonstrate their superiority. I don’t go to religious sites and preach to them about the wonders of unbelief.

    Even my comment about the witchdoctor is not strictly rudeness. I feel much closer to authentic native pagan traditions than I do to intellectualized clerical traditions like the Abrahamic God.

    I strongly suspect that the person Don Keener was describing, conducted an exorcism – going by his description. And the implications of that just make my blood boil.

    If I was ever, even in my wildest dreams, going to do some symbolic ritual; then I would far rather it was an authentic native tradition. They just seem far more wholesome to me.

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