Will Bill O’Reilly or anyone else who saw the hand of God in the safe landing of US Airways Flight 1549 this January please explain why God chose not to save Continental Connection Flight 3407, which plunged into a house outside of Buffalo last night, killing all 49 people on board and a resident on the ground?
Among the explanations which will not be accepted: “humans cannot possibly fathom God’s mysterious ways.” Oh yes they can, apparently—when something good happens. Having found proof of God’s love in the safe conclusion of US Airways Flight 1549, believers cannot now turn around and claim that God’s ways are veiled just because something disastrous happens. If it’s legitimate to infer beneficence from a happy outcome, it is equally plausible to infer malice or at least indifference from a negative outcome. You can’t pick and choose the actions in which you find God’s will transparent.
So we have HotAir to thank for this swarm?
HotAir indeed!
I just don’t understand why all these people showed up to teach us theodicy. This blog is called Secular Right. Its creators weren’t kidding.
If Heather can be faulted for anything, it’s taking Bill O’Reilly seriously.
“Matt Springer: I confess I’m at a bit of a loss here. The existence of suffering is not exactly a brand new trump card that no believer has considered before.”
Oh, we know that believers have considered it. What we find, however, is that their answers, in addition to being grossly inconsistent with each other (when you would think that they should all add up) just aren’t particularly satisfying.
“But if you’d like I can try my own answer to your question: because we all die eventually. If the plane hadn’t crashed, their deaths would have been merely postponed. I didn’t die in that plane crash, but it’s a certainty that I will join them in a number of decades – if not sooner. I would think that an omniscient God would take the long view of things. If he exists, life’s just an infinitesimally short staging ground for eternity anyway.”
This for instance. Yes, we all die eventually. But in that case, why credit God for saving the people in the other plane? Why assume that ANYTHING that happens is either bad or good? If you retreat into moral obscurantism, or declare that this bad event ultimately doesn’t matter in the face of something much more important, then this seems to devalue the moral content of nearly every event. For all we know, Jeffrey Dahmer could have been doing God’s will.
Obviously you and I find that idea abhorrent, but you’ve already removed the basis for our objections: the idea that we can know whether his actions were “ultimately” bad or good. We’ve reduced the actions of people on earth to those of actors in a play, after which we’ll all go home to “real” life. But in that case, it doesn’t seem to make sense anymore to speak of the moral content of anything the actors did on stage, especially if they have the insight to know that it is all really just theater (i.e. the more they take God and his eternity seriously, the less seriously we should take earthly life). Now, of course, theologians tell us that what happens on earth is important: deathly important! But it seems to me that they’ve already fatally weakened this claim. They can say that God abhors this or that action, but as far as I can tell, the reasons for abhorring it now seem utterly arbitrary: without content other than simply that God doesn’t enjoy this or that plot twist very much.
Many of the comments here seem to take the position: No reasonably well-informed believer would ever think that God would help an airplane in distress. I stand corrected and apologise for my misunderstanding of faith. The problem I have, though, is that quite a few believers, if I am not mistaken, pray to God for all manner of things great and small–recovery from illness, the alleviation of debt, reconciliation with a family member, protection from catastrophe, you name it. Now this may just be a crabbed, non-believer way of thinking, but isn’t there little point to prayer unless you believe that the entity to which you are praying has both the ability and inclination to answer your prayer? So if God can be reasonably petitioned to answer *your* prayers, why might he not answer the prayers of passengers in a distressed airplane or even just save it on his own?
But in any case, I at least now know that the writers who accuse me of a naive simplistic understanding of religion would never themselves pray, since that, if I am understanding correctly, rests on a naive and simplistic understanding of God.
@Brandon Clark
Just need to add that the Superman character is based on the Jesus character. Paraphrased xample given: Jor-El sent to Earth, his only son, Kal-El so that he would grow up as a human child and know their ways and protect them from evil. So that particular reference is justified.
Hmm. I think that people are allowed to deny the existence of God is more proof of a loving God than some plane landing in the Hudson. You know, the whole free will thing.
By the way, Jesus has a nice answer to your question if you are interested:
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]: And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down. (Luke 13:1-9)
In other words, shit happens.
@Heather Mac Donald
I don’t know that prayer always involves the sort of attitude you suggest. A lot of believers pray for the purpose of seeking communion and connection to their God, rather than asking for things. Or for more ephemeral things such as forgiveness (from God) or strength to help them get through some event.
It’s just worth noting that there are all sorts of theological ideas about what prayer is and is supposed to achieve: praying to alter event on Earth is just one of these concepts. There might be good lines of criticism against them all, but they are probably not all subject to the same complaints.
Bad: Praying for divine forgiveness or personal strength still assumes a responsive God who interacts with human beings. The ubiquitous invocation “God bless America” is either meaningless boilerplate or else presumes that God can in fact confer protection and blessings on the country.
@Brian
You do realize that you haven’t answered, or even acknowledged, the actual questions at hand, do you?
@Heather Mac Donald
I quite agree. I’m just pointing out that not all of these things fall under the same attacks.
Strength is either unfalsifiable, or found in the act of prayer itself. And forgiveness isn’t even about responsiveness in this world.
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@Brian
You do know that you can’t really take the Bible (especially the New testament) as evidence of what Jesus said and as “The Word of God”. Go take a college-level class on the testament, and then come back to this website.
Good men never rejoice at a tragedy, averted or not. But don’t we all understand the risks we take in modern everyday living? Behind the wheel of a car or behind the cockpit of a jet, we consensually take risks.
Is it God’s duty to prevent us from the possible consequences of our actions? Regardless of your theology, isn’t it a conservative notion that we are accountable for our decisions?
“. . . that’s when you begin to suspect divine intervention.” Devine intervention would mean that the birds went through the engines without so much as a bump, and the plane flew on undamaged. So, I guess God saved them to shake them up or what?
I once read part of a book that was given to me titled “When Bad Things Happen to Good People.” When I put the book away to never be opened again, I soon realized that someone should write a book called “When Good Things Happen to Bad People.”
I think they are stupid questions, hence my sarcastic response. Perhaps I should have preceded my reply with a . Would that have helped?
To Bad,
That should have said preceded my reply with a sarcasm note and ended it with a /sarcasm.
@Sean
Gee. You pegged me as a fundamentalist. How quaint.
Let me spell it out for you in simple terms that even you may understand: My point of quoting St. Luke’s Gospel is that this question is not unique to this age and its answer is not different either. Is that better?
By the way, should I go to the same university where you got your degree in etiquette?
@Kevembuangga
If I felt I could give the time I would quote written history all day with you giving you examples of what group killed another in the name of their belief system. It is not exclusive to Christians or any other group with or without an organized name to have a history of violence (Or continued).
I have no doubts in my Faith. I was pointing out that beyond Faith the only true way to know what is beyond this life is to move to the next.
Very well put. Faith is nothing but the blind leading the blind. A just God does not exist nor an unjust one. The only god is chance. Now stop worrying and go and smell a flower.
@AngryHank
I could give the time I would quote written history all day with you giving you examples of what group killed another in the name of their belief system
This is not what I meant, you didn’t read carefully enough.
This was the case of a senior churchman acting in office, who killed HIS OWN coreligionists (interspersed among others, bad luck…) relying on God mercy and insight to “sort them out”.
You may notice that Islamist suicide bombers also apply such a policy since they quite often blow up “good muslims” around beside the bomber himself.
BTW, if Heaven is such a lovely place and God “all goodness” why is death still such of problem for true believers?
@Brian
“I think they are stupid questions, hence my sarcastic response.”
Ah, to be three again, wherein it suffices to merely run around calling things “stupid” and thus avoid the necessity of reasoned thought or response.
lmao, this.
God, who is all knowing, all powerful and all good, just can’t stand those damn gays, can he? Did he screw up when making them, maybe?
Why, what is he going to do, must be something bad, because the sentence is definitely a threat. So god is capable of giving me pain and punishment now is he?
And I thought someone somewhere said he loves everyone, even if you turn your back on him.
Bloody hell, make up your minds x-tians…or better open your minds to the fact your religion reeks of contradictions.
Perhaps there was one on the plane which god wanted to smite, and since he has never mastered the art of the Surgical Strike he had to kill the many to get the one.
I heard that he only wanted to kill one person in the Great Flood, but as usual he screwed it up and took out almost everyone including all the innocent animals except a handful.
I recommend anger management courses God, or failing that FPS video games to improve your aim. Get it done asshole!
@Kevin
jesus said to peter, “peter go fetch me some beans” why didnt peter go fetch jesus beans? he had ADD
Let’s first prove god exists or… prove god doesn’t exist.
What’s the point of arguing until we know for sure ?
Those Jesus Freaks
Well, they’re friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut….
The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing
-Frank Zappa
@Laura
Hey Laura, who do you think created the devil?
I take it that you still believe in the tooth fairy
The other day in NYC, 3 people were killed by the wind in “freak accidents.” Two women were killed by falling tree limbs and one construction worker by a collapsed wall.
Why are low-probability events with bad outcomes called freak accidents and long-shot happy endings called “miracles?”
Isn’t it true that Jesus watches over us all, like a Good Shepard, keeping us safe from harm, until we’re fat enough to be butchered?
Heaven needs angels. How else is The Holy Spirit going to get us up to Heaven if we keep avoiding death?
Maybe it isn’t a miracle when you narrowly miss being smote by Yahweh. Maybe he just missed.
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Pingback: My response to the Godless heathen complaining about the safe landing of Flight 1549 and the recent crash of Flight 3407 « Smash Mouth Politics
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270
Let’s see if we can clear it up for you.
Why would God “tolerate evil”? For the same reason he separates the light from the darkness. One cannot appreciate one without the other. It is only by some experience with the nature of evil that one learns to appreciate the alternative offered by God. Thus evil is subordinated to his purpose. Part of the nature of God, as revealed by Christ, is mercy, so when people give thanks for having been spared a calamity they are simply acknowledging that their deliverance may have been a act of divine mercy, not definitively asserting that it was.
Answer. God does not miss.
Although God does not create bad things, he does have the power to stop them. There is a reason for our suffering and one of them is to remind us that this world is temporary. Our suffering is caused by being separated from God. For believers, we believe we will all join him in eternity and for those who don’t believe, they will be separated from God forever and the suffering we feel here on earth will be nothing compared to an eternity of complete separation from him. I think the burning in hell inferno is a term man came up with as a metaphor to describe an eternity without God in erms we can understand here on earth. Souls may or may not literally burn in hell, but that might be the only way we, as mortal humans, can imagine the suffering of being separated from God and all he created forever. If you don’t believe, your free will is being exercised and in the end, the way you spend eternity is in your hands.
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It is utterly CHILDISH to think that God or the Universe or whatever else, personified or not, cares for puny humans stranded on a backyard planet in the middle of nowhere on a remote suburb of this peculiar galaxy.
Wake up you delusional morons.
No rhyme, no reason. So it goes.
Its the same kind of storys I use to read all the time in the newpapers down in Florida. A man would lose his wife, daughter, son and his legs in an accident on the interstate and then say God must have been riding with him that day – that’s why “he” is still alive. You could find story’s of this type all the time in the papers.
You guys have it all wrong. Because people are sinners, Satan made the plane crash and God had to let it happen in order to punish us……
Because there is no god; get over it. God was invented by early homonids who’d consumed psychedelic drugs like peyote and shrooms, which unlock the mind. Which is also why they’re illegal. The only legal drug, aside from tobacco which only causes addictiveness and death (I quit smoking on Feb 4th 2009 after starting when I went to college in the fall of 1995) is alcohol, which does not grow but is ‘fermented,’ that is, it is the result of rotting fruit. Alcohol makes you stupid, that’s why it’s the only legal drug. because the government doesn’t want you THINKING, they want you DRINKING.
You religitards baffle me, fighting to protect your stupidity.
@Kevin
If god really did exist as the majority imagines I’d kill myself
@Cat
I am one of those ‘seperated from god’…it was a messy divorce, but I am over it now. After the way god treated me for so many years, and with all my friends telling to just leave him…I finally did it – and I haven’t looked back!
@Jane
Atheists- Winning since 33 A.D.
Haha, that was at the bottom of the poster, I had to add it.
And Phil E. Drifter, you are my hero. I couldn’t agree more with you!
@pat harwin
Atheists aren’t proclaiming that this somehow makes me evil. They are merely saying that there’s no purpose to assigning me to either of the plane crashes, because I don’t exist.
and they make a good point.
@Machine Gun
Well, then, tell me what was before god…
@hanmeng
Werent religious enough! That BS!! Religion is for people that cant think for theirselves and need to feel special and fit in
RE: Comment by Laura #24:
“I’m a believer and believe that God does not create evil. There are tragedies that occur that are out of our control. God does not make them happen.”
Perhaps you should read these passages from your “holy” book.
Lam 3:38/
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Amos 3:6/
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Is 45:7/
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Want to rethink your comment now over your silly superstitious beliefs?
If people actually read their own mystic books they would soon realize for themselves just how idiotic their childish beliefs are.
Shopped. I can tell by the pixels.