Sean, our resident Islam expert who advised me to go meet those Muslims whom I’ve never met, said something which caught my attention below:
“What Islam is as a realized matter” is also a lot broader than “they support terrorists and beat women and and and.” I have lived in Islamic countries, and I can say for certain that the average Muslim is simply a more generous, warm person than the average American. There are a lot of reasons for this, but one of them must surely be the way the Koran is written so as not to allow people to read Randian economic principles into it, even if they really wanted to. This is an observation based on years of interaction with them, and having been raised in a Pat Robertson-watching homeschool environment. I know both groups pretty well. (I also used to teach Muslim culture and counter-terrorism at the US Army Intelligence School, so I’ve some background on those issues as well.)
First, the practice of Islam probably has more to do with the Sunnah and Hadith than the Koran. Second, the implicit contrast with conservative Christians is interesting, because many Christian socialists imply that the New Testament is the most communitarian religious text you could unearth. The bigger issue is Sean’s strange inversion of a phenomenon you see among many Islam-skeptics. Whereas they reduce the demonic nature of Islam and the perfidy of its believers down to the narrative of the Koran, Sean attributes the acts of generosity and kindness to the Koran. I don’t believe that the behavior of Muslims has much to do with the Koran in a necessary causal sense, let alone that Reformed Christians are truly sola scriptura. Religion emerges as a social enterprise through social consensus, and references to scripture are often post hoc rationalizations. The cursory pre-Islamic Arabic prose and poetry we have makes clear that like the patriarchs of the Hebrew Bible these were a people who were steeped in the necessity of generosity and hospitality to the guest. This is typical in many “developing societies,” in the Malthusian world of bare subsistence this sort of gifting was a necessary manifestation of reciprocal altruism. Institutional religion tends to scale and scaffold the raw material which is already there. The literary text of a book with only a minority can read, and only a tiny minority read with any comprehension, would seem of marginal impact in the broader scheme of things.
I also used to teach Muslim culture and counter-terrorism at the US Army Intelligence School, so I’ve some background on those issues as well.
Well, I see all that training and background paid off so well with Maj. Hassan.
Most of Sean’s experience with Muslims has been as not only the stranger, but the big, strong stranger with all the air power and M1A1’s at his back. Treatment of weaker strangers–particularly dissenters–is not so good. The only response I’ve gotten to this is that back in 18-something-or-other we had slaves. True, but so what? It’s 2011.
“The only response I’ve gotten to this is that back in 18-something-or-other we had slaves. True, but so what? It’s 2011.”
Why go back to the 1800’s? Segregation did not begin to unravel until the 1950’s. To this day, we still deal with the repercussions of our societies treatment of the less powerfull. Looking at incarceration rates alone, while America is 66% non-Hispanic white, 70% of our incarcerated population is non-white.
Many people refer to America as a “Christian” nation. If our society truly reflects those values, then we should be a lot more humble when judging other societies for their failures regarding equal treatment of minorities and other less powerful people.
This is not to say we shouldn’t seek to encourage, even to demand that they rise to a higher standard, but we need to rise to that standard better ourselves as well.
I can see why “Sean” has irritated you so much, what with his misunderstanding of your personal background and all, but by the standards of blog comment threads he’s quite all right. Especially when those comments express disagreement with a post about Islam, terrorism, and one of America’s most objectionable congress-creatures.
“I have lived in Islamic countries, and I can say for certain that the average Muslim is…”
This statement strikes me as astoundingly fatuous, whatever the second part of the sentence is.
To begin with – the “average Muslim” is an Indonesian, Bangladeshi, Indian, or Pakistani peasant. There are more Muslims in Indonesia than in all Arab countries combined.
Besides those countries, there are immense numbers of dirt-poor rural Muslims in Egypt, Yemen, Afghanistan, and the Sahel.
For anyone to make blanket statements about “the average Muslim”, he should have had a lot of close contact with all these groups – as an equal, not as a wealthy foreign visitor. And perhaps not as a “white man”, either.
If one was to say, “I have lived in Islamic countries, and I have found Muslims to be more … than Americans …”, that would be about the right level of authority.
I have also lived in Muslim countries and the average Muslim is warm and friendly indeed. However, his average kids are hate-filled maniacs screaming insults at kids being non-Muslim (we are talking 10 year olds here), and screaming for Jews to be killed (again 10 year olds).
The median Muslim cleric condones death for blasphemy, and leaving the religion.
Okay, so where does that leave us now?
“but one of them must surely be the way the Koran is written so as not to allow people to read Randian economic principles into it”
So then isn’t the problem with Christianity in the west these “Randian economic principles” more than inherent problems with Christianity? Or perhaps, as you allude to, people not reading their sacred texts.
I would argue that most people are warm and friendly, but politics is different.
Hi, original Sean here. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I’ll address each of you individually. First, Mr. Hume: I agree with you. Religion isn’t necessarily the thing that drives morals (that case is generally overstated), “fundamentalists” only read what they want to read, and religions appropriate what’s around them, especially when they are just getting going.
I didn’t see the need to attempt to disentangle religion and culture in this case because (a) it was a blog comment, and (b) have you seen how entangled religion and culture are in those countries? It’s all well and good to point to pre-Islamic cultural traditions and say, “that’s what you have to do if you live in a wasteland,” but the fact remains, I argue, that even today Muslims are pretty generous people whether they are wealthy and live in first-world conditions or not, and that probably has at least a little bit to do with the fact that their religion reminds them of the importance of charity so often. I’m not so naive as to believe that religion is the source of their generosity, but I’m also not so naive as to believe that being told every Friday that you will go to hell if you don’t give to the poor has no effect.
@Polichinello: Apparently you believe that a person’s entire biography can be stated in one sentence. At least that’s what you appear to believe, since you’ve decided to explain my life experience to the world.
I am deeply familiar with the problems of being a “Stranger” in a foreign culture, especially with guns behind me. Fanon was much on my mind as I prepared to go to Iraq the first time. Was I successful in not “othering” the Iraqis I encountered? Hardly! Even were I some sort of saint, I was working for a company that didn’t get any of that stuff. But I was at least aware, and I spent a lot of time breaking down those ideas for my colleagues who would listen. (And no, I’m no devotee of Fanon–some of his insights were important to me in that context.)
@Rich: “If one was to say, “I have lived in Islamic countries, and I have found Muslims to be more … than Americans …”, that would be about the right level of authority.”
Agreed. I overstated. Please don’t assume that I think I understand something so big and complex as “what Muslims think.” I’ve got more insight than most of the idiotarians who post online about it, but I don’t believe for a second that I’m the final word.
@Contemplationist: “The median Muslim cleric condones death for blasphemy, and leaving the religion.”
Really? That’s funny, because the leading clerics at Al-Azhar University denounce it. I’d love to see your evidence for this. Have you any? If not, why did you make this argument?
Also, pace Rich, most Muslims are in Indonesia and India, so you’d have to show that this was a huge problem in those countries for this to be accurate.
@Mark: you seem to be making the same point as the author, which, as I stated above, I generally agree with.
“I would argue that most people are warm and friendly, but politics is different.”
Very true. I just worry about the ability of politics (and religion) to turn the otherwise warm and friendly people into monsters. Islam’s certainly demonstrated its capacity for that, as has every other religion and -ism that come to mind.
Mark Tully wrote:
This is a place where I’m actually pretty sympathetic to Robert Wright’s thesis. It seems people are pretty capable to selecting which parts of texts get privileged over others and allegorizing away (or outright ignoring) stuff that gets in the way. Indeed in a sense that accounts for much of the theological differences between various religious subgroups.
I don’t think there’s any logically reason why this couldn’t happen to Islam. And indeed I think you could say that for periods of its history this explicitly did happen within Islam.
I think one big danger in how Americans view Islam comes from American Protestants or even atheists who’ve adopt that basic Protestant frame of reference reading the Koran the way a Protestant reads the Bible. Yet that’s not typically the way Islamic hermeneutics works, even amongst the various more fundamentalist movements. So I think a compelling case can be made that this leads us to over-estimate the inherent problems within Islam. On the other hand this also tends to lead us to ignore the other social factors going on that lead to fundamentalist Islam of the sort that is a problem for us. You see this as well by the constant refrain, especially among the left, about poverty being the problem. However I think that tends to just illustrate the left’s tendency to read Islam through a Marxist lens much as far too many conservatives read it through a Protestant one.
Note I’m not saying what the right way to read Islam is. (I don’t think I know) Just that I’m pretty sure both ends of the American political spectrum are reading it based upon their own ways of viewing the world rather than allowing for a different way of seeing things.
but I’m also not so naive as to believe that being told every Friday that you will go to hell if you don’t give to the poor has no effect.
how is this different from christians going to church? you seemed to be implying a contrast. in any case, friday prayer attendance varies a huge lot. and no everyone stays for the sermon. at least that’s my exp. in bangaldesh.
Really? That’s funny, because the leading clerics at Al-Azhar University denounce it. I’d love to see your evidence for this. Have you any? If not, why did you make this argument?
the historic tradition of interpretation does indicate that the death penalty is mandatory. or at least that is the majority tradition. it isn’t a black and white issue, there are periods of possible repentance allowed, and the periods differ for men and women (women get a longer period of reconsideration of their apostasy). because i’m technically an apostate i looked into the literature rather deeply at one point. it’s not a simple thing that can be captured in a sound bite.
in short, the orthodoxy has held that the death penalty holds for apostasy, but the rationale is different from the christian one. rather than enforcing an orthodoxy of the belief, the reason is usually that the apostate is a traitor, and so public apostasy is tantamount to incitement to treason. this is why generally if you are privately an apostate you won’t be bothered, just like if you are privately a homosexual, you won’t be bothered.
some authorities are attempting to change this position, and championing a minority tradition which makes enforcement of the death penalty very hard so as to make it irrelevant or moot. that’s who you’re talking about re: al-azhar. but since you know a lot about islam, you are probably aware that al-azhar isn’t determinative, and doesn’t serve as an islamic papacy. so the populace can still have their own views. al-azhar has spoken against female circumcision too, but egyptians still continue to practice it, many considering it “islamic,” despite the fact that this is even a minority practice among muslims, limited mostly to africa. i’m pretty willing to bet you that the typical ulam in the village holds to the old orthodoxy, though more international, cosmopolitan, oriented scholars are moving toward a more liberal conception.
also, here’s an interesting quote about british muslims:
if a Muslim converts to another religion, 36 per cent of 16-to-24-year-olds thought this should be punished by death, compared with 19 per cent of 55s and over.
btw sean. i “look” muslim and have a “muslim name.” and i haven’t experienced discrimination that i know of since 9/11. i’ve traveled through idaho and the south a fair amount since then. that’s an N = 1, and not a refutation of any argument of pervasive discrimination. but when non-muslims who are not “muslim looking” make the argument about how difficult it is to be a muslim in america today, i get a little tired of the knowing moral superiority. speaking as a brown dude with a muslim name, who has been on many flights, traveled, etc. since i don’t wear an “i’m an atheist” t-shirt i’ve had some funny instances where people assumed i was muslim, including at work, but nothing sinister. but perhaps i’m just awesome 🙂
Wolfgang:
“To this day, we still deal with the repercussions of our societies treatment of the less powerfull. Looking at incarceration rates alone, while America is 66% non-Hispanic white, 70% of our incarcerated population is non-white.”
The incarceration rates per 100,000 adult population of the Natives in Canada mirror very closely the incarceration rates per 100,000 adult population of Australian Aborigines. On the other hand, the incarceration rates per 100,000 adult African Americans are markedly similar to the incarceration rates per 100,000 adult Blacks in England and Wales. […] The percentages of minorities under correctional control and supervision in these countries in no way reflect their makeup in the civilian population. Currently in Canada, the Natives constitute about 3% of the general population but 17% of prisoners in the federal system. In Australia, the Natives currently make up 2% of the population but 20% of all prisoners. African Americans currently make up 13% of the US population and a staggering 46% of the sentenced prisoners. In England and Wales (1999/2000), Blacks comprised only 2% of the general population but 10.2% of the prison population.
Regarding my “knowing moral superiority” on what it’s like to “look Muslim” in America today, I’m very pleased that you haven’t experienced anything unpleasant. I’m sure you’re quite awesome, but I also see a photo of you wearing hipster glasses, so maybe you just look westernized. (It’s a good look, btw.) And maybe you live in a university town, or somewhere else where “diversity” is considered important. I don’t know.
At any rate, I think the hate crimes numbers are pretty well-established, although the truth of it is that things are better for Muslims in America than they are in France, Britain or Sweden as far as how they are treated by the natives.
Again, sorry I was so presumptuous. I’ve spent a lot of time debunking ill-informed bs about Islam (which I believe to be thinly-veiled xenophobia of the sort that America usually marshals when we go to war) and did not expect your position to be as informed as it is.
but I also see a photo of you wearing hipster glasses, so maybe you just look westernized. (It’s a good look, btw.) And maybe you live in a university town, or somewhere else where “diversity” is considered important. I don’t know.
well, it’s pre-9/11, but just so you know, i grew up in the intermontate west in a 75% republican town in my adolescence. i experienced some racism, but the less popular kids were probably picked on a lot more than i. and the gay kid was tormented. i don’t bring up my personal experience much because i’m not sure it’s relevant. but since liberals, like you, keep asserting general truths about “what is known,” i thought i should at least enter into the record my personal experience which just doesn’t comport with what you claim.
Again, sorry I was so presumptuous. I’ve spent a lot of time debunking ill-informed bs about Islam (which I believe to be thinly-veiled xenophobia of the sort that America usually marshals when we go to war) and did not expect your position to be as informed as it is.
compared to me most islamophobes are morons,* so i see your point. i guess i’m just going to have to constantly debunk the impression that i’m also a moron by whipping out my erudition 😉 it gets a little old though.
* as are most islamophiles.
“well, it’s pre-9/11…” I was actually talking more about the past decade, after more Americans learned to fear Muslims. But really, it’s not important. I accept that you are not an islamophobe moron, and that you are more than rational enough to engage thoughtfully. (Actually, had I known who “David Hume” was, I would have known some of that stuff already–a couple of years ago I dated a molecular biologist in Tucson, so I developed a dilettante’s interest in genetics, which included reading GNXP occasionally.)
I tend to agree with John Emerson’s point in that thread you closed down: “A pluralistic society swings between bigotry and knee-jerk tolerance, and liberals are on the knee-jerk tolerance end.” All in all, I’d rather err on the side of decent, humane behavior. Sure, it means I defend a little to strongly on occasion. Were Muslims taking over the Democrat Party, I’d probably find more to disagree with about them. As it is, they’re a very small minority, and a besieged one at that, so I take their side. For similar reasons, I’ve always kind of liked the Cubs.